Bugger Off

[Neville Briggs]

its just a piece of cloth , mostly made overseas , no real meaning , certainly doesnt elicit any great pride or anything like that , change it or keep it , it is of little consequence one way or the other

It's hard to tell what your disposition is on this , perhaps just being provocative, but I think if we are going to style ourselves as poets we can't accept an argument like that.
The flag is a symbol. Poets, of all people, should understand symbolism.

We might as well say that a poem is just a piece of paper with ink marks on it. We know that a written poem isn't that, it is the physical representation of an idea.
And the flag, any national flag, is the physical representation of an idea.
Don't we take a lot of trouble to make our poems speak about the idea of Australia, the idea of what we are in the context of our nation and land. In a way the flag does that as well, so it certainly does matter. You could say that the flag is a poem about an idea.

Heaven help us if we think that the idea of who we are and what this place means to us is of little consequence and only a trite notion.

[warooa]

Marty is right - it is just a piece of cloth. If you're patriotic you do things for the love of your country and fellow man, not a piece of cloth.

And I don't know why we pretend to be "flag wavers" like the good ole USA when most of those flags, and product with said flag on, are made in China. It's a bit hollow.

Marty

[Bob Pacey]

Pretty lame argument for a lack of patriotism .

Search around until you find an Aussie made flag, they are out there.

If you apply that theory I reckon you would starve to death.

Bob

[Neville Briggs]

Marty is right - it is just a piece of cloth

So I must be wrong, I wonder why I am wrong, you didn't say.

[Neville Briggs]

My question above was for Marty Pattie, the other one.


To get off the track a little, as usual. As poets, isn't it important that we deal with "sayings " correctly. I am not exactly sure what you had in mind Marty. but you reminded me that the saying by Samuel Johnson " patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel " seems to be used now and again in a way that suggests that patriotism somehow makes a person a scoundrel, or characterizes a person as a person of bad character.

The proper meaning of the phrase is obvious. Scoundrels make all sorts of excuses and
justifications for their bad behaviour. If they run out of excuses they ( according to Johnson ) take refuge in patriotism, a last resort which they consider an unchallengable virtue.
I don't think that the saying in any way, could be interpreted to make patriotism some bad thing, false patriotism surely.

Does George Bernard Shaw suggest that people who adopt a new country after being born elsewhere cannot be patriotic for their adopted homeland.

Samuel Johnson and George Bernard Shaw are internationally acclaimed writers, you want to be careful Marty, are you claiming them as authorities.

[Glenny Palmer]

My Grandma's wedding dress was a piece of cloth..........

[manfredvijars]

My shorts and undies were tattered rags when I slid down a tree once ...
(scraped a bit of bark off me too)