Punctuation

[Mal McLean]

I think the thing to remember is that English is a living language and our judges are, I think, very aware of this. There must be rules and there will also be change, however slow, because change is the only certainty.

Let us do the best we can.

Mal

[Stephen Whiteside]

Perhaps you are right about the written competitions, Vic. I really wouldn't know.

From my own limited experience judging I do know that it is hard enough making decisions based on your own perceptions, let alone trying to take into account your perceptions of what other people's perceptions might be.

What I mean by this is that I suspect the only way you are going to get poems judged in a different way is by changing the judges. Perhaps this already happens to some extent. Perhaps competition organisers choose judges that they feel best reflect their own values. Again, I really wouldn't know.

[manfredvijars]

"If competitions have a clear judging criteria, this may clear up some of the mystery surrounding results" ...

DEBATE ... ...

[David Campbell]

Below is part of an existing ABPA scoresheet that may be used by organisers for written competitions. I don't like the concept of scoresheets, but the descriptors are useful. Note that GRAMMAR/PUNCTUATION/SPELLING is only one of six categories.

ASSESSMENT DETAILS
(It is incumbent upon the judge to discern if any variations in metre and rhyme are appropriate)

RHYTHM/METRE: Regular throughout
RHYME: Consistent pattern throughout, avoiding laboured changes to normal speech patterns
GRAMMAR/PUNCTUATION/SPELLING: Consistent, conventional usage avoiding any unintentional ambiguities.
LANGUAGE: Compelling. Effective use of imagery. Melody of words, appropriate to the subject.
STORYLINE: Flows smoothly from arresting title and/or opening lines. Progresses logically through stanzas to a forceful, appropriate conclusion.
OVERALL: An original concept or a novel approach to a well-worn subject. A poem that, within the guidelines, impacts greatly upon the reader. Has that “Wow” factor.

[william williams]

Me back again Stephen I have no doubt as to your intellectuality in fact I admire it, but as a person of ordinary ability.
I find that a lot of this is passing over my head and the heads of the rank and file members.
Manfred has made a statement that maybe there should be a more stringent and very defined guide lines as to the judging.
In performance comps there are THREE judges hopefully giving THREE different interpretations of what they had heard.
Where as in written comps there are generally only ONE judge giving their interpretation of what is read that to me does not seem to give a very balanced interpretation of the poem ( my apologies to the judges).
The standard has been set that only the elite may reach it quite often and this excludes most rank and file members.
The story line is the most important part of the poem (story) the rest are only components of the rules that are to be followed.
The greats poets wrote about simple things interesting things by way of using plain words that people could understand without having to use a dictionary.

Now these are but my observations and thoughts

Bill Williams

[Stephen Whiteside]

Hi, Bill.

I'm not sure we're quite on the same page yet, and I'm not sure we ever will be.

You make some very interesting points.

I would hope no poet would ever use a big word just for the sake of it. More importantly, perhaps, I would hope no judge would ever reward them for doing so. I doubt if they would.

It is true that the great poets wrote great stories that everybody could follow and enjoy. That doesn't mean anybody could write like that, though. If they could, everybody would be doing it. Poets like Banjo Paterson wrote with enormous skill. They made it look easy, but that was just a part - perhaps the biggest part - of their skill.

Your comment that nothing other than the story really matters is a very interesting one. You could write an essay on that, I reckon, but here are a few of my thoughts - for what they are worth.

Many writers love language. They love words, the way they flow, the rhythm they create, the way they look on paper, the way they sound when read aloud. To these people, the story is just the beginning. You might say you are not one of those people. Perhaps you are, perhaps you aren't. I don't know. I do suspect, though, that the sound of the words, their flow, their rhythm, means more to you than perhaps you realise.

Henry Lawson is a particularly interesting case. Lawson was rather contemptuous of mere story telling. He thought it was a lazy way to write. He was much more interested in what he called the 'sketch', or the 'sketch/story', where he was painting a picture with words, describing a scene and the various characters in it, often in an extremely detailed, honest, revealing way that had never been done before. If you look at some of Lawson's greatest pieces, there is often very little story at all. It is all description.

I know it's hard not winning competitions, or receiving awards. All of us feel this frustration, though some more than others, of course. Then again, it's the pain of losing that makes the taste of victory so sweet.

[william williams]

Hi Stephen just a quick reply.
Winning is not everything I have only entered 7 poetry comps in my life my first I was commended at the man from Snowy river festival the next I won the novice comp at Victoria state my next I was commended Southern Shoalhaven these to me are great, but what I enjoy most is seeing the enjoyment on peoples faces when they hear the spoken word. by the way when you go to poetry programs do you sit and listen to the poetry (stories) they are telling or do you just sit and read them. Because listening is far more pleasant.

bill williams

[Stephen Whiteside]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, Bill. I don't usually get an option. If it's a show I listen, of course, but there is never anything to read there.

[keats]

The people who are perhaps most qualified to judge are still entering the Written Competition, which effectively limits the quality of Bush Poetry judges available, so I find it hard to complain about judging by those it is left to. Sometimes teachers, sometimes inexperienced reciters, sometimes artisans. I do not claim this happens in every competition, but believe me, it does happen. Until our top writers sacrifice competing for judging, we will always be judging the judges. I am not saying that those writers SHOULD stop entering, just that while they are chasing trophies, just realise that the organisers have usually employed the best judges they can get or know of for their written comps.

Neil

[Glenny Palmer]

The people who are perhaps most qualified to judge are still entering the Written Competition, which effectively limits the quality of Bush Poetry judges available.....
Until our top writers sacrifice competing for judging, we will always be judging the judges....while they are chasing trophies, just realise that the organisers have usually employed the best judges they can get or know of for their written comps.

Neil...sweetheart...now you're just being silly. As you know I am an ABPA accredited Judge. I wasn't born Australian Champion, waving the trophy around in my cot! I had to work extremely hard to achieve that honour...and to progress to the standard known as 'professional.' Once I had won the title a number of times I withdrew from performance competitions altogether, which I think is the honourable thing to do. 'We' (the old campaigners) did not have 'the elite' to battle; we had to establish the elite. (Mind you that was not the Nirvana it may sound like. We had to win a week's eliminations etc etc to just get to the Finals.) It is just an absolute fact of life that in any creative pursuit there will be many different levels of ability and achievement in the DNA of the participants. I would hope that in a healthy group the more advanced will aid those newbies coming through. I believe this is largely true of our group. Just think back a ways. 'We' were bloody terrible then, in comparison to now. (Some of us) kept working, and studying, and appearing, and getting knocked back, and subsequently honed our skills sufficiently to arrive at the advanced level required of being effective Judges. Only some can progress to this level. Some will advance two thirds of the way. Some will never arrive, and may well not wish to.

I'm unsure of just how many judges are on the ABPA's accredited list, but I feel certain that there are more than enough to 'go around' if the organisers are genuinely interested in having credibilty for their event. (I have only judged 3 written competitions in the last 12 months and would have welcomed double that amount of work.)

I absolutely LOVE words. (I use them vigorously as you know.) I love to play with words, with rythm, with rhyme with structure. It is my passion. My poems are akin to being my children, and I nurture and care for and polish them up all shiny, and like any proud mother, I smile from ear to ear when someone rubs their curly hair and says 'what a charmer you are.' To hell with the trophy! And now you want to lock me out of the joyous pursuit of sharing my work in a competitive arena. You might as well demand that I stay away from my child's Graduation Night....or tell Grant Hackett that he's won enough gold medals...now bugger off. Any poet with 'Champion' potential would welcome being up against the 'elite' because champions embrace the competitive high bar...they strive! What joy lies in a trophy that was easily won? 'We' had to do it....let the newbies do it. And in so doing give themselves the best opportunity to become 'the elite'...which they are doing! Look at the great advancement of some of our members from just a few years ago. I don't enter a lot of written competitions, but I do love to still enter....and not just to get another flaming trophy! (I've got 2 boxes of them in the shed as it is....all destined for the op shop when I shed my mortal coil. )And you can bet your treasured thongs that there will be a dozen accredited judges who are sitting idly contemplating their navels wondering where the judging work is, and not flooding the comps to the point of exclusion to all non-judges.

No no. I don't think your argument should be with the judges, but moreso with the event organisers. The quality judges are there for them to choose. Their local dry cleaner may charge less (than a few dollars a poem) but at what cost to the credibility of their event?...not to mention the public perception of our craft. The event organisers should be the target.

Goodo.... XX