ABPA - Australian Bush Poets Association

The chances are probably pretty small, Stephen, but I was hoping for a ripple effect over time. I'm assuming competition organisers often base their guidelines on what they see being used in other competitions, so maybe if something along the lines that I'm suggesting begins to appear then others will take notice. The main message is that not only is a broad definition of "publication" unfair to entrants, but it backfires on the organisers themselves. What many of them are effectively saying is they don't want poets to enter anything that's already been published in another competition's anthology, but they reserve the right to publish entries in their own anthology...and hence potentially render them ineligible for future competitions. Result? People don't enter. I've just emailed a current competition which is doing exactly that and asked them to clarify what their rules mean.

Zondrae's comment is very pertinent. The Bronze Swagman anthology comes out each year, and it contains a lot of poems that haven't won a prize of any sort. Such publication should not rule those poems out of future competitions.

It would certainly help if the ABPA was able to contact at least those comps which operate "under the auspices of" the ABPA. However it could be problematic to contact any others (and there are a lot of them) as they might resent the intrusion. If any competition organisers are reading this it would be interesting to hear their views. Do they see any advantages to having the "publication" definition so broad? Would they agree that limiting the definition could increase the number of entries?

David

G'day all, sorry I'm a bit late comming into this one, I was about to enter a poem (rhyming non bush) into a comp. but went to another web site which has a "poems for critique" section, now I thought (yes, we all know what thought did) I would be OK, but before I could enter my poem I found someone had 'lifted' it & placed it on some other poetry forum, so I could not enter my poem in the comp I wanted to because it was now classed as 'published'.....lesson...don't place poems in critique sites.

As I have very, very few 'bush' poets I can ask for critique here in Cairns, & I don't like annoying you lot of wonderful writers here on ABPA (though I have a few times) I rely on a friend to punctuate my work for me, but she is not a poet.

Unfortunately this is the world we live in now where anything can end up on the internet.

Dave I am sure that not one person here would ever consider annoying a fellow poet asking for a critique or a bit of help with anything.

People on this site are so generous with their help and very genuine if they offer a suggestion. It is what makes the ABPA feel to so many of us like if not family at least bloody good friends. That is of course just my opinion

Geez, turn your back for a few days to scribble (or rescribble) out some poems for competitions and you miss all the fun.

I am concerned about David J's poem being "lifted". That should not preclude poems from entering comps. Beyond control. Maybe you could PM a trusted member for a critique. Hmmm. You would need to ask first in case that member is about to be a judge in the comp you want to enter. Thinking on the run, here.

David C, as usual makes us think about problems on many levels. What if you get an HC, get the Judges constructive comments, rework the poem and re-enter in a different comp and in the meantime your original work comes out in an anthology? The poem may now be substantially different or perhaps only cosmetic changes have been made. If you, the poet, are precluded from competitions and receiving further constructive criticism while attempting to improve your work and your craft then that would be outrageous. It seems that is possible. My solution, again on the run so without the considered thought this problem requires is to do this simple thing. Give your poem a new title.

Ah, but that could open up a different can of worms if people re-entered re-titled poems that have won a cash prize. pfffffffff. Are there any dishonest poets?

I wonder if the problem of "exclusion policy" is being compounded by a lack of entries. Recently, I have had two seperate discussions on this issue. One with my local poetry group and one with an ABPA official. On both occasions it was thought the number of written and performance entries may be dropping, or at least stagnating. One of the reasons put to me is that there is a gap between the consistently high performing entrants and the rest of us. Winners must not be penalised for their excellence by excluding them from competitions. That would be unthinkable. My solution was to make the competitions more attractive by offering much more substantial prizemony in order to maximise both the number and quality of the entries. To provide the carrot. As far as my local group was concerned I might as well as have announced I have anthrax. The ABPA official was more sympathetic but without the clout as we are an umbrella organisation at the end of the day. It was up to local organisers.

David c is right to prefer the words "cash prize". I think that would be a good start.

It occurs to me now that it would not be remiss of us to construct a feedback group. That is, a subcommittee of the ABPA, maybe drawn from Forum users, whose job it is to provide competition organisers, whether they ask or not, with a constructive review of their competitions. David C's posts below would probably provide a good basis of thoughts for this. Such a group would need to have input from actual entrants, written and performance.

Anyway, thats my two bob's worth.

Mal

G'day Marty,
Fair enough. I take your point that there will be thin skinnned people and organisations who would take offence at criticism .

I don't propose a boots and all criticism, just a gentle feedback.

My feeling is that the response would likely be "Oh, I didn't know. I'm so glad you told me." Just like when we get feedback from judges on our poetry and work to improve our craft.

As for the forum, well there are 114 users and I guess most will be members of the ABPA. Whats our membership? about 450 or so? Im not sure. The place where we can publicly air our views is the forum. A polling company would be overjoyed with that type of sample.

As always, I can be wrong about almost anything and I often am.

I'll see your two bob and raise you 30 cents.

Thats my 50 cents worth.

Mal

David’s problem with the ‘lifted’ poem is a serious one but, as he says, the only sure way around it is to avoid those websites. But that sort of publication shouldn’t preclude future competition entries anyway. It’s directly linked to Mal’s scenario, which is an interesting one. When does a poem become a different entity through revision/improvement, and what happens if someone else’s advice has led to that revision?

There’s no simple answer to that. I’d argue that revision has to be substantial (hard to define, I know, but definitely more than changing the title) and there has to be clear evidence of the poet’s input. If someone asks me for advice I try to keep it to general suggestions, with perhaps a limited amount of rewriting (maybe one stanza) as an example of what I’m proposing. The rest is up to the individual. That way the poet retains ownership of the result.

But competition organisers need to be aware of this and use commonsense. Any form of writing involves regular revision because we’re constantly trying to make things just that little bit better. I’ve got several versions of some stories and poems, most written when the original didn’t seem to be getting anywhere. It’s presumably what a lot of us do…always tinkering, rearranging, trying to find the right word or phrase. It’s all part of the fun and the challenge. It could be awkward if two different versions of the same thing simultaneously won a prize and were published, but I can’t see why either should be disallowed.

I judged a competition last year in which the first prize-winner, in submitting the poem for publication on the competition website, posted a slightly different version to the one I read out at the presentation. She’d completely changed one line, and admitted later that she’d simply forgotten which version (of several) she’d originally entered. The changed version was actually better! So it happens.

I understand what Marty is saying, but would hope that organisers would take comments in the spirit in which they’re given…constructively, in an attempt to improve the situation for both sides of the equation. It may simply, as Mal says, be something they’ve not thought of before.

I suspect the problem partly arises because organisers are totally focussed on their own comp. Their thinking is: “Okay, we want these poems exclusively for our anthology so we don’t want anything that’s been seen before. And we want to publish a really impressive book so we’ll put in as many poems as we can.”

They don’t necessarily think of the broader context and the implications their wording might have, not only for their own situation, but other competitions as well. We’re talking about the craft of bush poetry here, something that extends far beyond individual poets and competitions…a genre we want to see constantly improving and reaching a wider audience. Performance plays its role in this, and so does the written word. In written competitions, with the rise and rise of the internet in particular, it seems likely that poets are now being more careful about where they submit and why, so organisers need to think very carefully about the way they frame their guidelines if they want to remain viable.

Cheers
David

I'm returning to this thread because in an earlier post I mentioned writing to a competition seeking clarification of their rules about publication and prizes. Here's the answer (I've deleted the name of the competition because I don't know if they want this information made public):

Published poem: For the purposes of this competition, a poem will be considered ‘published’ if it has been made available in print or electronic media to the general public for commercial purposes. Regarding printed anthologies issued by competition organisers, if the poem has not won a prize (see below) and if the author is not personally involved in compiling the anthology, it will be eligible for entry in the ...............................................................

Poem appearing on a website or blog: If said website or blog does not originate with the author of the poem, and the poem has been posted by someone other than the author, the entry will be deemed eligible.

Definition of ‘prize’: Any poem which has previously won a prize, whether cash, trophy, certificate, or other presentation in any official poetry competition, will not be eligible for entry.


Now this raises the obvious question: why wasn't the above information included in the guidelines? There are potential problems in terms of the guesses that entrants will have to make about eligibility. For example, non-prize-winning poems that have appeared in other anthologies are eligible, but poems posted by poets on this website are not. And you can't enter a poem that has won a certificate (HC or C)...not something I've seen specified before. It's absolutely impossible for people to deduce these fine distinctions from the vague published guidelines. I can well imagine someone innocently entering a poem that's previously won a certificate...and they'd be quite right to object if it was subsequently disqualified.

David

Some good points have been raised here.
Personally, I believe that, as poets, we need to be clarifying the regulations with the competition organisers ourselves.
When we write seeking clarification (and it should be in writing!) and receive an answer, we are then free to further contact the organisers and express our concern or reasons as to why a regulation may unfairly limit our eligibility, and/or affect our willingness to enter their competition in the future. We are also then free to offer suggestions on alternatives that we feel may enhance their comp entries.

My belief is that, as David says, most organisers have used a form taken from another competition, and are solely focussed on their own competition. They most likely have never considered the effect such regulations (ie not having been published) may have on the future viability of their competition, and would possibly be only too pleased to review their regulations in light of our comments.
If they are not interested, and are rigid in their beliefs without even considering constructive criticism, I would venture to say that they are probably competitions that you would not necessarily be worried about missing!!

Generally, if you encourage someone to look at an issue from another point of view, most reasonable people will at least consider your options, even if they ultimately chooose to continue with their original idea. If they don't, don't enter the comp!! There are many ways to raise these issues without upsetting the organisers - feedback is always a very important aspect of ensuring your competition continues.

Just my humble opinion!!
Catchya
IRene

Tiss a question that I am asking.

We compete for First, Second and Third prizes and these are prizes be they cash or other wise.

But Highly Commended and Commended certificates are as such a certificate that is a statement telling you that it is not quite good enough.

So how can they be a prize when they are just a complement of that persons ability and as such should be allowed to be entered in any other compertition.

Bill Williams

Well, I am going to enter a former HC poem of mine into a well known and supported competition, along with some new poems. I am going to include a cover note advising the organisers that it was been awarded and HC, that it has not been included in an anthology, nor published on line and i have recieved no prize monies or other funds in relation to it. Further I will advise that i have made some structural changes to the poem to improve it in line with a judges comments that the stanzas could have been shorter. I will do all this very politely and in the interests of assisting the contributions to this thread. l will let them know that I am asking for their advice so that I can advise other poets of the intent of the rules in relation to their comp. I don't know if I should pass on that advice or not until results are announced.

I hope this will prove of some assistance