Another opinion sought

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Neville Briggs
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Re: Another opinion sought

Post by Neville Briggs » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:05 pm

My not so humble :o opinion Terry is that there is nothing wrong with your first draft.

There is one bit of advice that I have seen that I think helps with avoiding the rhyming word grating on the ear, and that is to try and rhyme a noun with a verb or some other figure of speech, rather than rhyming nouns with nouns, verbs with verbs etc.
In the end though, I think it's the best words in the best order whatever the parts of speech.
Neville
" Prose is description, poetry is presence " Les Murray.

william williams

Re: Another opinion sought

Post by william williams » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:11 pm

Thinking about it some more Terry to me it is a tale you are telling and I myself would say

I pause (PAUSED) a while at Murphy well and think (thought) of stories it could tell

I pause awhile at Murphy’s well, and think of stories it could tell,
of men from many walks of life, who’d stopped to wash the grime away.
The shearers and the mining types that rested here and smoked their pipes,
while swapping yarns and bits of news as they would pass the time of day.


bill williams

warooa

Re: Another opinion sought

Post by warooa » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:09 am

I agree Terry . . . I've got a similar 'iffy' rhyme in one of my poems:

They braced the Old Kulara bridge with scaffold and support,
what else to do in times of drought - but play a game of sport.

very similar to your away/way . . even though different words that rhyme there's that repeat of the end rhyme.

I, too, should come up with an alternative. Though I'm far from technically correct in general this hits me between the eyes as glaringly wrong everytime it comes out my mouth.

I'm sure there are other examples.

Cheers, Marty

vwalla
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Re: Another opinion sought

Post by vwalla » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:36 am

Terry
How about?
"Whilst reminiscing-swapping yarns -recalling tales of yesterday"
Val W

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Glenny Palmer
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Re: Another opinion sought

Post by Glenny Palmer » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:19 am

G’day Terry,
To understand rhyme a little more: Ending each line with a strong beat (stressed syllable) as you have done here, gives the poem a general ‘strength.’ It’s kind of ‘bam, bam, bam.’ So it’s important to be mindful of the poem’s message. eg. one would likely not go ‘bam, bam, bam,’ in a love poem. (Well…maybe some real blokey types might… :roll: ) This is called ‘strong’ or ‘single’ rhyme.

Where the rhyming lines of poetry end on a weak beat (unstressed syllable), it is called ‘weak rhyme’ or ‘double rhyme.’ It is a softer approach, & is therefore called ‘feminine rhyme.’

So it’s fine to go all strong, or all weak, or mix the two methodically.

Now this is where I think you are getting understandably confused: In weak rhyme, the last unstressed syllables (weak beats) of the words are the same, but (in the words used) the stressed syllables directly before the weak beats are strong rhymes. eg. ‘be-ing, see-ing’. ‘Be’ rhymes with ‘see’ and both end with ‘ing’. I know you are asking about the reverse, but the same thing applies....just in reverse. (Oh it's difficult to explain at times.)

You have used ‘a-way’ and ‘way.’ As Neville noted this is ok….because…‘the’ (the way) aligns with ‘a’ in ‘a-way’. ie. ‘a-way’…. ‘the way’. Bob’s suggestion that you speak the lines out loud (or better still record them, & play back) will show you how ‘it sounds.’ But are you happy with something that is essentially ‘ok’? I think this discussion shows that you are not, & some adaptions so far are fine. IMO it is simply a matter of having used two ‘too alike’ words that is weakening the poem. One way to correctly scan your work is to write it out as prose is written. One long line is best but hard to achieve on a pc. This is written in Iambic (one weak, one strong, one weak etc.) See how it scans. (A-1 actually)

I pause a-while at Murph-y’s well and think of stor-ies it could tell of men from man-y walks of life, who’d stopped to wash the grime a-way. The shear-ers and the min-ing types that rest-ed here and smoked their pipes, while swapp-ing yarns and bits of news, that they had heard a-long the way.

See how you can identify a continual correct use of the structure here? Always one weak, one strong, one weak, etc. rather than becoming confused by individual lines of poetry?

The 2nd half of the last line is IMO becoming a tad ‘throw away’. It has much better opportunities. eg.

while swapping yarns and bits of news. What peace to muse upon that day. (Just a thought. I like Val's suggestion too.)

And also, to Bill. I think that Terry has achieved a very difficult thing here. He has successfully changed tense, & that is not easy to do. But Terry, take Bill’s advice in being mindful throughout the rest of the poem, that you keep doing it successfully or it could crash & burn. If you decide to wind up by returning to your initial 'place' (of standing, musing,) be sure to revert to the present tense.


Marty,
In your example, the only thing I can see that’s causing difficulty, is what does playing sport have to do with bracing a bridge? The structure is fine. (Iambic. one weak, one strong, one weak etc.) As above…‘of’ (of sport) aligns with ‘sup’ (sup-port). ie. 'of sport' sup-port'. Not knowing the rest of the poem puts me at a disadvantage. Perhaps it leads into why they’d then play sport?

‘They braced the Old Kul-ar-a bridge with scaff-old and sup-port what else to do in times of drought - but play a game of sport.

Hope this helps.
Cheeers
Glenny
The purpose of my life is to serve as a warning to others.

Terry
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Re: Another opinion sought

Post by Terry » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:42 pm

Thanks everybody,
Neville,
In a way (there I go again) what we all are saying is that it not only has to sound right but for peace of mind it helps if looks right as well,.
There have been a number of good suggestions from everybody, it just goes to show what options are, available to any situation.
I must give your suggestion a bit more thought to really get the gist of it.

Bill'
You make an interesting point there with the pause 'paused', think 'thought', suggestion. I suppose I was sort of talking in the present tense, I'm telling the story as I move along, you really need to see the whole poem to probably see what I'm trying to do, but it is a bit complex, as from time to time I hark back to how thing were in the past, as I have midway through this stanza. More food for thought.

Bob,
I agree with you, regardless of whatever you do, it has to sound right when you recite it.

G/day Marty,
There are a number of those, what I think, are iffy rhymes. Even though they are often legit. they still rankle and you're not completely satisfied with them, and often when this happens you have a sort of brain fade and can't come up with a better solution, even though there is fairly obvious on available. (On And Gone for some reason always seem odd to me)

G/day Val,
An excellent suggestion as well, it just goes to show how many options are available to any possible problem

Thanks again to you all.

Regards Terry

Terry
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Re: Another opinion sought

Post by Terry » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:15 pm

G/day Glenny,
It's been awhile since we last communicated (I was about to say crossed paths). I've only been making quick visits to the forum myself and notice you were away for an extended period as well.
Thanks for taking the time to have a look at this and offering your advice, I can assure you it's always appreciated.
You're quite right about me not being entirely satisfied with (1) that rhyme (2) as you correctly suggest, the second half of the last line.
You have also noted exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm telling the story as I go along and in this case pause a moment (present tense) then change tense to finish the stanza. The next stanza is back in the present if that makes sense. As I mentioned to Bill you really need to see the whole poem to really get the gist of it, but I take your point about swapping back and forth with the tenses, you need to be very careful not to mess it up.
This discussion just goes to show the wealth of ideas that exists among forum users.
Finally I thought the 'iffy' rhyme thing might be an interesting subject to kick around a bit

Regards Terry

Terry
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Re: Another opinion sought

Post by Terry » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:37 pm

Hi Again Glenny,
A couple of more thoughts have come to mind.
I probably could have explained a little more clearly about what is happening in this story, and the poem is about.
What I'm supposed to be doing is narrating the story as I move on past various points of interest, or of memories about certain places as I come across them, resulting in a bit of back and forth with the tenses. It's based on a true story and of course has a reason behind what's going on if that makes sense (not too sure if it does - or causes more confusion),
I think your advice on using the best descriptive words (as in the second half of the last line) is excellent, it's so easy to relax and say thank god that's finished, when really the important part of enhancing the poem still needs to be done.
Cheers Terry

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