Poetry as 'entertainment'

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Stephen Whiteside
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Re: Poetry as 'entertainment'

Post by Stephen Whiteside » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:54 am

Interesting discussion.

I enjoy poetry workshops, but don't get much opportunity to convene them these days.

There is one technique I have learned from watching others, and I always try to institute it nowadays. It is as follows. I always try to sit all the participants in a circle in order to remove any sense of a hiararchy. Ithen ask everybody to introduce themselves. Yes, it is time consuming. In a 90 minute workshop, the first half hour may well be taken up with intros - and if you have more than about 15 people present it starts to become a little unworkable. I find it invaluable, though. It is the best way I know of to make sure that everybody feels involved. It also means that we all get to know each other a little, and gain some sense of what everybody is hoping to get out of the workshop. I also dislike the idea of workshops being an opportunity for 'experts' to pass knowledge on to the other - presumably - 'non-experts', and this is a good way to avoid this. More often that not, the end result is a lively discussion amongst equals.
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Neville Briggs
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Re: Poetry as 'entertainment'

Post by Neville Briggs » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:57 pm

What I would hope to get out of a poetry workshop is that someone with more knowledge and experience ( expert ? ) would be able to pass some of it onto me ( definite non-expert ) to boost my meagre store of poetic crumbs.
Neville
" Prose is description, poetry is presence " Les Murray.

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Re: Poetry as 'entertainment'

Post by manfredvijars » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:12 pm

... Poetic crumbs eh? Sounds like you need to knead the dough ... :lol:

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Re: Poetry as 'entertainment'

Post by Stephen Whiteside » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:22 am

Neville,

It was probably a bit clumsy of me to use the terms 'expert' and 'non-expert'.

Let me try to explain myself a little further.

As a festival goer, I am generally drawn to workshops rather than large concerts. The enjoyment of a festival for me is a sense of involvement. If I'm not actually performing myself, I like to seek opportunities to 'perform' in minor ways in other events, and workshops are usually best for this. I don't like to be a passive audience member in a large crowd. Yes, for a truly fabulous act I will do it occasionally, but it is something I generally try to avoid.

So over the years I have attended many workshops, or small discussion groups. Some of these are poetry workshops, some are based on historical research, some are based on storytelling, etc. One of the strongest workshop memories I have is a storytelling workshop at Port Fairy in the 90s. I think it was being run by Jan Wositzky. Jan has a particular interest in interviewing figures from history, and slowly drawing their stories out of them. He was discussing his various techniques, and how the senses can prompt memories - photographs, music, etc. He then made the excellent point that smell is a vastly underrated sense, and that various aromas can take people back in time more effectively than almost anything else. I recall we were all sitting in a circle at the time, and he passed around a variety of aromatic objects for us to smell. It was a very powerful experience.

As a general rule, the least successful and enjoyable workshops I have attended have been where the convenor is out the front 'pontificating', while the attendees are all line up in rows in front of him or her. I should say there are exceptions to this. Occasionally, I have seen it done well, but usually not. What often happens is that a number of the attendees gradually become disengaged, but are too polite to say so. Occasionally they leave. More often, they simply fall silent. Energy is sucked out of the event until eventually it more or less collapses. Of course, this is also a very frustrating experience for the presenter, who is trying everything they can to generate some audience participation, but often their frustration shows, which makes things even worse.

The reality, of course, is that a workshop is an educational exercise, but very few poets have had a formal training in education, and even fewer teachers are poets.

The 'workshop lightbulb' moment for me was one year at Port Fairy (perhaps it was the workshop I have mentioned above - I can't exactly remember) when the convenor placed us all in a circle, and invited us all to introduce ourselves. He wasn't necessarily saying we were all equal as performers or writers, but he was saying we were all equal as people, which was very powerful.

In my experience, most newcomers to poetry workshops are riddled with self doubt. They have often been writing in secret for many years, with very little support from family and friends. Often it is an act of great courage to even attend the workshop.

To introduce yourself in any depth to a roomful of strangers can be quite a challenge, and is also a performance in its own right. While the process of introductions can be very time consuming, it is also extremely valuable - perhaps the most valuable part of the workshop. People will often sell themselves short or put themselves down on these occasions, only to be encouraged and have their confidence buoyed by those around them.

Now, you might say that poetry workshops are about poetry, not such nebulous concepts as confidence and self esteem, but I would argue that you have to have your 'head in the right space' first before you can create anything of quality. There is no doubt in my mind that these introductions can be very therapeutic.

Sometimes there will be some acclaimed writer or performer who tries to subvert the workshop and dominate the discussion. I generally do my best as a convenor to discourage activity of this nature. If they are sufficiently unhappy with me, they don't come again, and the workshops are not necessarily any poorer for that. Ideally, of course, they fall into line and accept the ground rules. Such people do generally have a great deal to offer.

I think David is onto something here. I have had discussions with Geoffrey Graham in the past, where I have expressed my frustration that discussions between poets on stage are generally so superficial. He makes the valid point that the emphasis is generally on entertainment and humour. I have floated the idea with him of the two of us having a serious discussion about poetry on a stage. Unfortunately, the opportunity has not yet presented itself.

Many of you will know Andrew Pattison, who used to run the Troubadour venue at the National Folk Festival. Andrew adapted the "Desert Island Discs" scenario (from radio) to the folk setting. He would take some noted folk musician, and invite them to choose seven songs or records to take with them if they were condemned to live the rest of their lives on a desert island. By forcing them to justify their choices, they inevitably reveal a great deal about themselves and the lives they have lived.

These shows are very popular with musicians. Why not with poets?

Imagine if some talented interviewer, for example, had sat down on a stage with Milton Taylor a year or two before he died, and conducted such an interview? Imagine if, even better, the whole show had been recorded on video? (Perhaps this was actually done somewhere. I don't know.)

Do we sufficiently value our poets? The wider community will never do it, but we poets could do it for ourselves.

There is so much I would like to know about my fellow poets, but don't. Yes, there is all the basic stuff about childhood, influences, greatest achievements, etc. What I would love to know are what the poets have really been trying to achieve - not just their greatest achievements, but their greatest disappointments. The big regrets of people approaching the end of their lives fascinate me, because they can be so instructive.

I have often felt that the way we organise poets to perform lacks imagination. There is so much more to poetry than the 'five minute performance bracket'. Well run workshops are one way to broaden the palette. On stage interviews might be another.
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Re: Poetry as 'entertainment'

Post by keats » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:36 am

Don't stop, Stephen, just going out for more popcorn! lol :D

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Re: Poetry as 'entertainment'

Post by Neville Briggs » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:11 am

:lol:
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Re: Poetry as 'entertainment'

Post by Stephen Whiteside » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:19 am

Hey, I've just started!
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Re: Poetry as 'entertainment'

Post by Neville Briggs » Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:46 am

A lot of interesting thoughts there Stephen. I noted the bit about the pontificating to the rows of mute attendees, I think ,sadly that is a legacy from the centuries of tradition of the sermonising orator. We can thank the ancient Greeks and the church for that.
I would dearly like to see that sort of practice reduced severely.
I went to a workshop once where the participants sat in a circle but the convenor went on for two hours with no input whatsoever from the participants. :cry:

As far as performance goes, I am a poor poetry performer so I am only musing on what might work. I could be wrong.

As you mentioned; the seating for the audience. I wonder if it would be more entertaining for a poetry performance if the performer delivered the goods standing before a sort of semicircle of audience rather than up on a stage looking down on that horrid rows of seats.

In England a prominent orchestra conductor, Sir Henry Woods, introduced an idea of trying to reduce the stuffy atmosphere of orchestra concerts by taking away all the seats and allowing the audience to stand or stroll around and sit on picnic rugs and pillows. These began the series of concerts known as The Proms ( promenades ) which have been enormously popular for over 100 years of tradition.

So I think Stephen you have hit on a good point, lateral thinking, change the audience aspect rather than try and change the performer's content might present poetry as more entertaining. I would do it, but trying to get others to change years of entrenched practice is soooo difficult.

Sorry to go on so long Mr Keats. :roll:
Neville
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Re: Poetry as 'entertainment'

Post by David Campbell » Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:56 pm

I was involved in one of Stephen’s “circular” workshops at the Newstead Folk Festival back in January and it worked very well. Everyone had a good chance to participate, and one of the most active contributors was a woman much younger than the rest of us, which was very valuable. It was more of a discussion than a workshop, which is why I think there’s plenty of middle ground…somewhere between a poets’ breakfast, which is full-on recital, and a teaching/learning workshop…that can be used to advantage.

At that festival they also had a session with four musos up on stage with the challenge of talking about and presenting things like “the first song they could remember” or “the first song they recorded” or “their favourite song”, and that was a lot of fun. I don’t think there were any audience questions with that one, but, from memory, there were in another session where three musos/poets talked about and performed some of their pieces. One of those was Ken Prato, who will be known to many, and he told stories about his shearing days.

Organisers need to explore as many opportunities as possible if they have writers/performers present. I went to a presentation (not bush poetry) a few years ago way out in the boonies down here in Victoria. The organisers got up and talked about what they did, the judges got up and talked at length about their decisions…and the prize-winners (there were several apart from me) were allowed to do nothing but walk up, shake a hand, and sit down again. No discussion, not even a reading of the winning poem/story. I queried this with the main organiser at the end, pointing out that people had made a considerable effort to get there (one woman had driven for four hours), and she looked at me in amazement. It hadn’t occurred to her. Maybe she saw the occasion as a chance to promote her organisation rather than as a celebration of writing, who knows? I won something again the following year, but didn’t waste time going back.

It’s all about getting people involved and feeling part of what’s happening…gaining a sense of belonging, if you like. And if that encourages one or two to go further with writing or performing, then that’s a bonus.

Cheers
David

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Re: Poetry as 'entertainment'

Post by Bob Pacey » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:10 pm

Either one or the other so close that you can see the whites in their eyes or up on a big screen with thousands of viewers there is no in between


Not gonna type anymore it was a four rum performance tonight lol and the keys keep moving.



Bob
Last edited by Bob Pacey on Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The purpose in life is to have fun.
After you grasp that everything else seems insignificant !!!

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