Help Please

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Re: Help Please

Post by Heather » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:36 pm

John, you're my hero! That was my point exactly - same consonant sound and if it's the same it is not a rhyme! John Whitworth, huh! What would he know! :lol: (Just teasing Neville!)

Ok, we'll let Neville and Manfred slug it out from here shall we? We'll stand back and enjoy the show!

Heather :)

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Re: Help Please

Post by Peely » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:42 pm

No worries Heather

It ought to be a good show.


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Re: Help Please

Post by manfredvijars » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:49 pm

Apologies for hijacking your thread Heather ... :o(
Neville Briggs wrote:John Whitworth and Banjo Paterson both use the same material for their poetry...the English language. It's the language that validates the poetry. I'll see your Paterson and raise you one Homer, one Omar Kyyam and one Virgil. :ugeek:
Nevie ... that was a FREDRIKSEN (not a Paterson) - still English ...
Now Homer - SIMPSON?? (American but still sorta English) ... not familiar with his works ...
Omar the Iranian ... and Virgil the Latino??? (both DEFINITLY not English) ... :(

Mauzie, we hope to have Graham Fredriksen's complete works (over 700 pages) published in the coming year.

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Re: Help Please

Post by Neville Briggs » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:11 pm

G'day Heather. I hope I didn't hijack your thread, I thought it was about the techicalities of form :roll:

I won't slug it out with Manfred, he's bigger than me and by the look of him on Youtube much tougher :lol:

I'll leave it with a theological quote from Jesus ( you remember him, the manger,Bethlehem etc ).. " The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath " If you can work out what that means( and its not hard) then you should have a guiding principle for dealing with rules and definitions.

I think therefore I am

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Re: Help Please

Post by Zondrae » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:26 pm

G'day Heather,

When I offer my thoughts I often start by saying.."To be on the safe side.." Now if I were to have this problem, (insert previous quote) I would throw both words out and find alternatives. Or rearrange the sentences, if possible, so that these words are not at the end.

I am in the middle of a poem and on re-reading (for about the 50th time) I noticed I had used the same rhyme for two consecutive couplets. I had to reword one of them. I must have 'tried on' three or four different pairs before settling on one. Then about half an hour later I chopped the whole stanza. Writing is a metamorphc process. I have read many times (phrased in different ways) that we must not let ourselves 'fall in love' with our words. It is hard, however, to take a step back and examine a poem as though it was just handed to you to critique.

My first mentor says (in his workshop) that, a good idea is to write and fiddle with a poem until you are happy with it, then throw it in a drawer for a month, then take it out and read it and see if it still holds up.
Zondrae King
a woman of words


Re: Help Please

Post by Heather » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:31 pm

I get where you're coming from Neville.

As for hijacking - not at all - feel free any time. Absolutely about technicalities and I think it's great when everyone pipes up with their opinions - the more the merrier because then we might find one we agree with! (And we might learn something new.) I've googled John Whitworth's poetry for example and found I like some of his work - so thanks for bringing him to our attention.

Carry on...

Heather :)


Re: Help Please

Post by Heather » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:39 pm

Oops, sorry Zondrae, didn't mean to ignore you - we were posting at the same time. I wrote a poem where I did a similar thing - I had the same word twice in the same stanza and was so familiar with the work that it took someone else to point it out to me - drats, back to the drawing board I went.

Heather :)

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Re: Help Please

Post by David Campbell » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:35 am

This is an interesting discussion, but it looks as if my first New Year resolution is going to be to treat definitions of rhyme in the same way as rhyming dictionaries…with caution.

As an alternative to the one John quoted, here’s a definition of perfect rhyme taken from the Random House Dictionary: “rhyme created by the use of two different words, or groups of words, of which both the stressed syllables and any following syllables are identical, as in lighted, delighted.” Now if “lighted” and “delighted” are rhymes, why not Heather’s “performed” and “informed”? I wouldn’t rhyme lighted with delighted for the reasons explained in my original post, but this definition seems to be more flexible than the one John quoted.

Then there’s Wikipedia. It talks about the last stressed vowel and any following sounds being identical, but goes on to say that if the sound preceding the stressed vowel is also identical, the rhyme is sometimes considered to be inferior…and called “identical rhyme”. The example given is “gun” and “begun”…so maybe we call performed and informed “identical rhymes”?


You say “potato” and I’ll say “spud”,
this whole rhyme thing’s as clear as mud!

Happy New Year!


Re: Help Please

Post by Heather » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:29 pm

David "identical rhyme" sounds like a solution to the problem. Not ideal to use but can be used if desperate for a rhyme! :D

This has been an interesting discussion and it has helped to make things clearer in my head - so thank you.

Heather :)

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