Help Please

Discussion of any bush poetry topic.
ONLY Registered Forum Members have access to this Forum.
User avatar
David Campbell
Posts: 1232
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:27 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Help Please

Post by David Campbell » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:36 pm

Hi Heather

Great poem! It’d make a terrific performance piece…complete with lots of dramatic action, of course. Leonie’s asked for a judge’s opinion, so here it is. (And anyone disagreeing…please feel free to argue.)

Yes, they are rhymes, and a rhyming dictionary will confirm them as such. I doubt that any judge would penalise their use. However, I understand your concern about the fact that they both end in “formed”. The question to ask with rhymes is: can it be done any better?

Within each group of rhyming words, some rhymes are better than others, and, if possible, it’s worth trying to avoid situations where the stressed syllables at the end of two (or more) rhyming lines are exactly the same. Not because it’s wrong, but because an alternative will most likely be stronger.

For example, in one of my poems you’ll find the lines:

No matter what I do as long as I might live,
you’ve said that we are through, that you cannot forgive.

Now they could have been written:

No matter what I do or how much I might give,
you’ve said that we are through, that you cannot forgive.

The second version isn’t wrong, but the fact that both lines end with a stress on “give” just doesn’t work as well. This idea can be extended. Here’s another example, using internal rhymes, where the stress isn’t on the final syllable. I wrote:

I am not alone in leaving, with my childhood friends perceiving
that their future on the land is looking bleak.

An alternative, again not as good for the same reason, would have been:

I am not alone in leaving, with my childhood friends believing
that their future on the land is looking bleak.

This adds another layer to the complexity of rhymes because I’m arguing that, even with accepted rhymes, there are still decisions to be made. Rhyming dictionaries should be treated with caution. For example, to (almost) borrow a word from your poem, if you’d used “boobs” in a rhyming situation a dictionary would have given you rhymes such as jubes, rubes, cubes and tubes. I agree with the first two, but not the last two. To be exact rhymes the last two would have to be pronounced coobs and toobs…and they’re not.

Cheers
David

Leonie

Re: Help Please

Post by Leonie » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:49 pm

Thanks for that David. Your comments are very helpful, and your examples demonstrate what I was thinking might be the case. That a rhyme can be 'right' but another word might be better. As for those rhyming dictionaries, well they can certainly be 'interesting'. :roll: I tend to take the stance that if it isn't in a rhyming dictionary it isn't a rhyme but not all that is in the dictionary is a rhyme either. Does that make sense? It did in my head. :lol:

Now I'm off to see if boobs is in RhymeZone. :lol:

OK I'm back and this is just too precious not to share. It rhymes boobs with cubes, lube's, and tubes but the only other word that they say rhymes with boobs is galoob's. So ok, I click on galoob's for a definition and they say "Sorry, we don't have a definition for this word or name." :lol: :lol: :lol:

Heather

Re: Help Please

Post by Heather » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:55 pm

Thank you Neville. Who am I to argue with John Whitworth?

And thank you David for your in-depth answer. We learn something new here every day.

I see this poem as a bit of cheek and more of a performance piece than something I would enter into a comp. Normally I would use another word (that's part of the challenge), but in this instance there were only three one syllable rhyming words and they were not suitable, and all the other rhyming words were others such as formed, reformed, deformed, performed etc. Not a lot to choose from. Well, at least I know I didn't cheat now and I can sleep tonight!

I have noticed that the on-line rhyming sites use words that "look" alike but do not actually rhyme. They put them there to trick us I think (or Americans have no idea how to talk proper perhaps).

Heather :)

It would be a good idea if David's rhyming tips could be put into the "TIPS" section. Hellooo, anyone listening?

User avatar
Peely
Moderator
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:50 am
Location: Tumut, NSW

Re: Help Please

Post by Peely » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:57 pm

G'day Heather

As has possibly already been stated, the other option that you can try if you are unsure of a rhyme is to change it for another. For example you might have been able to modify your lines to something like:
I won’t have liposuction or pursue a tummy tuck.
I’m told my legs and bum are great - (I’m blessed with lots of luck).
This is just one alternative, there may be others that also might be worth trying too (though I do quite like your original lines anyway).

Regards


John Peel
John Peel - The Man from Gilmore Creek

manfredvijars

Re: Help Please

Post by manfredvijars » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:49 pm

Neville Briggs wrote:"And remember - never stop remembering - that poetry is not a matter of definitions and rules and right or wrong "
How can you 'break' rules (of poetry) if you're not prepared to know them, understand them or apply them?
If you don't understand where the 'stresses' lie in your piece and lose your rythme as a result, does one usually say, "Oh, I did that on purpose"? ... :?

Neville Briggs wrote:If anyone disputes the poetic authority of John Whitworth, all I can say is " they know not what they say"
I'm sure he's fine, as far as "English" poets go Nev, but as far as multi-syllabic end-rhymes go, I'll see your 'Whitworth' and raise you a "Fredriksen" ... :D

Here are the first three of fifteen stanzas of "PATERSON’S YELLOW BAY"

_________________________________

At fifty years of age, poet A.B. ‘Banjo’ Paterson enlisted in the A.I.F.
in the Great War. He served in Egypt and the Holy Lands as an officer
in the 2nd Aust. Remount Unit (nicknamed the ‘Horse-dung Hussars’).


PATERSON’S YELLOW BAY
(c) Graham Fredriksen

I’ll tell you a tale from the gone days of glory when
.... Australia’s Lighthorse was a fearsome machine;
rough-riders, rough horses—the stars of this story—when
.... I was in Egypt in nineteen sixteen.
Ah! nineteen sixteen, back in old Heliopolis:
.... pyramids, ruins and temples of yore,
from the times when the town was a Roman metropolis—
.... what battles those columns and cobblestones saw !

But sackings by Saladin, sieges Napoleon,
.... scarce held a match to the wars that went down
when we came along with our horses unholy, and
.... formed a Remount Unit depot in town.
Army Remounts: it was our job distributing
.... fresh horses to regiments spread far and wide;
but at times we were saddled with rogues and this tribute in
.... part is to outlaws no one else would ride:

The scourings of all of the equine Australia,
.... steeds for whom Lucifer served as a sire,
were re-handled till troops in full paraphernalia
.... could climb aboard safely and ride under fire.
We bagged them, we lunged them, we rode them down wadis till
.... we tempered their temperament—hock deep in sand;
we long-reined, we short-reined, we pet them like poddies till
.... even the worst of them ate from our hand.

.......

Neville Briggs
Posts: 6915
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:08 pm
Location: Here

Re: Help Please

Post by Neville Briggs » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:26 am

G'day Manfred, I agree totally with you on at least one point. You can't " break " rules if there are no rules to break. Exactly right. Certainly there is a difference between those who know what the forms are and push the boundaries and those who claim to be pushing boundaries who in fact just don't know what they are doing. No argument there.

And the difference shows.


John Whitworth and Banjo Paterson both use the same material for their poetry...the English language. It's the language that validates the poetry. I'll see your Paterson and raise you one Homer, one Omar Kyyam and one Virgil. :ugeek:




Neville
Neville
I think therefore I am

User avatar
Maureen K Clifford
Posts: 7632
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:31 am
Location: Ipswich - Paul Pisasale country and home of the Ipswich Poetry Feast
Contact:

Re: Help Please

Post by Maureen K Clifford » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:48 am

Hang about you blokes - that poem that Mannie posted - I Googled and couldn't find it. Manfred any chance of posting a direct link to it as I would love to read all of it?

OK as you were carry on the conversation - sorry for the interruption.

Cheers

Maureen
Check out The Scribbly Bark Poets blog site here -
http://scribblybarkpoetry.blogspot.com.au/


I may not always succeed in making a difference, but I will go to my grave knowing I at least tried.

Heather

Re: Help Please

Post by Heather » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:00 am

Sorry to butt in here fellas but in reply to John. Normally I would pick another word John but I was determined to use "informed", come hell or high water. Do you sense a woman who likes to get her own way! :lol:

Righto, carry on you two.

Heather :)

User avatar
Peely
Moderator
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:50 am
Location: Tumut, NSW

Re: Help Please

Post by Peely » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:27 pm

I certainly can Heather,

I certainly can. :lol: (this reply almost looks a bit like free verse)

Regards


John Peel
John Peel - The Man from Gilmore Creek

User avatar
Peely
Moderator
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:50 am
Location: Tumut, NSW

Re: Help Please

Post by Peely » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:17 pm

G'day All

To continue on from previous discussions on rhyme, I have consulted a poetry textbook, "The Poet's Manual and Rhyming Dictionary" by Frances Stillman. To quote the opening paragraph on page 32 at the beginning of chapter 2, "Rhyme and Rhyme Patterns", it states:
"Rhyme in verse is the repetition, in the lines of a poem, of the same end sound or sounds. Rhyme is composed of the last accented vowel in a line and any consonants and unaccented syllables that may follow it. A different consonant sound must precede the rhyme sound each time it recurs. Thus the end sound "ay" allows as rhymes bay, day. lay, may and nay or neigh - but not both. "Eater" may be rhymed with beater, cheater, heater and litre. The repetition of sound must not extend forward to the initial consonant sound, for then the effect would be one of total repetition or identity rather than rhyme."
Going by that, technically informed and performed are not true rhymes unfortunately. It is more than likely that they don't sound too bad because both are two-syllable words.

Regards


John Peel
John Peel - The Man from Gilmore Creek

Post Reply