A comma

[manfredvijars]

"Man; without him, woman is nothing."

There you go Mauzie, got it right first up ...
(Zondrae, the reverse of this is also true)

[Stephen Whiteside]

There is no doubt that the rules of grammar change with time. Some of the greatest writers of all time, especially those from the 19th century, definitely do not follow the rules of grammar that I was taught at school. So there is no reason to believe the rules have not changed again since that time. My difficulty is that we were so comprehensively rewarded for getting them 'right', and so comprehensively punished for getting them 'wrong', that I cannot let them go now, even though I know it is irrational.

My other suspicion is that very little grammar of any nature is taught at school these days. The rules have not so much changed as been abandoned!

[manfredvijars]

My other suspicion is that very little grammar of any nature is taught at school these days. The rules have not so much changed as been abandoned!

My gramma's in the kitchin bakin lammingtons so I hasn't abandoned she ...

[David Campbell]

Zondrae

In answer to your question about the semi-colon, it's something I use when I want to link two ideas (such as two separate clauses), and indicate that they have a relationship. For example, here's a verse from 'The White Ribbon' (which is on the website):

She stares a moment, then she turns, a gesture of disgust;
the fury in her eyes still burns, and down there in the dust
he sees the ribbon, white as snow, contemptuously tossed.
While he just stands to watch her go and mourn for all he’s lost.

I could quite legitimately have used a full stop after "disgust", but didn't want to separate her action of turning away from the anger in her eyes. They're part of the same image. In other words I wanted to create a pause that was stronger than a comma, but not as complete as a full stop. There are also quite a few commas in there to indicate brief pauses. Then I used a full stop after "tossed" to force a dramatic pause before that last line, even though a semi-colon or a comma would have been no problem grammatically. These things are not set in concrete, and it all comes down to what effect you're trying to achieve.

A colon, incidentally, is a bit clearer. It's used when something (often a quotation) is being introduced, as I've done after "website".

Manfred's post is a neat little example of the importance of structuring pauses in what you write, although it's not often that such small changes can have such a dramatic effect!

Hope this helps.
David

[Zondrae]

Thank you all,

I will try to absorb what I hope are the correct points.

[warooa]

yeah interesting re the use of the semi-colon . . . I've just gone over a couple of recent poems I've written and don't really know why I used them when and where I did. Maybe they're like the other more obscure punctuation marks and have a greater effect when rarely used (like exclamation marks).

Cheers, Marty

[Neville Briggs]

That's an interesting topic Zondrae, and David has given an answer worth considering, I think.

My thoughts, for what they are worth.

Manfred's little joke ( it was a joke wasn't it ) brings up how the meaning and force of English depends so much on the rhythm of the language not just the order of words. That rhythm, I would argue, is a different thing from metre.
I think punctuation helps us make a notation of that speech rhythm for the benefit of the reader.

So I think Zondrae, you have brought attention to an important issue. I think us poets need to be very aware, not only of the metric rhythm of poetry but also the subtle rhythm of English speech that gives it such enormous expression.

I agree with David , expression is the issue, not keeping of rules.

[keats]

Really enjoyable and educational thread. Thanks to all involved, but really, what's a comma, amongst friends.

Sorry, what's a comma amongst friends.

[Heather]

I love semi colons even more than I love commas. I think they are the poets' best friend.

I wasn't taught how to use semi-colons at school but have learnt to use them in more recent times.

I use them when joining two portions of speech that together don't form a complete sentence. Zondrae check out my poem "And the poppies dance" and Henry Lawson's "The Lights of Cobb and Co." Lawson is a great one for using semi-colons. You can skip a few words and instead of using "and", "because" etc you use a semi colon.

This verse is a brilliant example of how to use a semi colon.

Fire lighted; on the table a meal for sleepy men;
A lantern in the stable; a jingle now and then;
The mail-coach looming darkly by light on moon and star;
The growl of sleepy voices; a candle in the bar;
A stumble in the passage of folk with wits abroad;
A swear--word from a bedroom - the shout of "All aboard!"
"Tchk tchk!" "Hold fast, there!" and down the range we go;
Five hundred miles of scattered camps will watch for Cobb and Co.

The lesson being over, I shall now run out the door and will check on your progress on my return! Have fun!

Heather

[Stephen Whiteside]

Did Henry really write it like that? It's an orgy of semi-colons, really, isn't it.