A comma

[Zondrae]

G'day all,

I feel the subject of the comma deserves it's own thread!

Is it not also correct to use a comma before and after a clause which could be taken out of a sentence without altering the meaning of the main thought of the sentence? In which case the comma can, and should, be used together with the conjunction. Also, for some reason, I have the notion that - if you use one comma in a senetence you should use two. Ex school teachers please advise on this as I am trying to recall English lessons from about 48 years ago. I remember studying Grammar in primary school but only trying to improve spelling in high school.

[David Campbell]

Hi Zondrae

The best advice I can give about the use of commas is not to get hung up on rules and to simply listen to what you’re trying to say. Your first question makes sense, but I’ve never thought about it that way. And I’ve never heard of the suggestion that using one comma in a sentence means you should use two! A comma is a weapon in your writing armoury…along with metre, rhyme, imagination, storyline, choice of words etc. etc. It’s deployed to create an effect, namely requiring the reader to pause briefly. (There’s a sentence with only one comma in it.)

Consider the first few verses of ‘Clancy’, for example (taken from a website):

I had written him a letter which I had, for want of better
Knowledge, sent to where I met him down the Lachlan, years ago,
He was shearing when I knew him, so I sent the letter to him,
Just ‘on spec’, addressed as follows, ‘Clancy, of The Overflow’.

And an answer came directed in a writing unexpected,
(And I think the same was written with a thumb-nail dipped in tar)
'Twas his shearing mate who wrote it, and verbatim I will quote it:
‘Clancy's gone to Queensland droving, and we don't know where he are.’

In my wild erratic fancy visions come to me of Clancy
Gone a-droving ‘down the Cooper' where the Western drovers go;
As the stock are slowly stringing, Clancy rides behind them singing,
For the drover's life has pleasures that the townsfolk never know.

And the bush hath friends to meet him, and their kindly voices greet him
In the murmur of the breezes and the river on its bars,
And he sees the vision splendid of the sunlit plains extended,
And at night the wond'rous glory of the everlasting stars.

I am sitting in my dingy little office, where a stingy
Ray of sunlight struggles feebly down between the houses tall,
And the foetid air and gritty of the dusty, dirty city
Through the open window floating, spreads its foulness over all

One interesting exercise is to ask someone else to take a well-known poem like this and strip out all the punctuation…and then it’s your job to put it back. Then compare your version with the original. ‘Clancy’ is a brilliant example of clear, flowing verse…very natural and conversational…so the punctuation has to assist that process. In the first two lines we get the classic letter/better internal rhyme where there is absolutely no pause after “better” (i.e. enjambment), even though you might expect one at the end of the line (and, unfortunately, I’ve heard it presented this way). But the use of commas after “had” and “knowledge” tells us how it should be read. Compare this with the start of the second verse, where there is a clear pause at the end of the first line. Then the next three verses use enjambment again in the smooth linking of the first two lines.

As indicated elsewhere, I don’t like capital letters at the start of each line, but that was the convention in Paterson’s day. And, for the sake of argument, I’ll suggest a couple of improvements! I reckon there should be a full stop after “ago” in the first verse, and perhaps a semi-colon after “tar” in the second verse. To me, there should be a stronger pause than indicated in both those places. It’s worth going through slowly and analysing exactly how Paterson has used his punctuation (comma, semi-colon, colon, full stop) to send a message to the reader.

It’s also worth noting that he has used the conjunction “and” after a comma on several occasions. In the context of my comments on Neville’s “parodies” thread, it puzzles me that any judge would think it’s not acceptable to do this. Perhaps it’s a vaguely remembered ‘rule’ from school days…just another reason not to get bogged to the axles in rules!

Cheers
David

[Heather]

I agree that commas can make a world of difference to the way a poem is read and interpreted -which is their purpose afterall. I love commas!

Heather

[Bob Pacey]

why, would, you, like, comma's,


Bob

[Heather]

Why would you like commas?

Why, would you like commas?

Hear the difference?


And speaking of Clancy. What if you changed a couple of commas in the first two lines? It totally messes up the emphasis and where you take a breath. It is the clever placement of the comma after letter and knowledge that make these lines work.

I had written him a letter which I had for want of better,
knowledge sent to where I met him down the Lachlan, years ago,

[Bob Pacey]

Nope could not HEAR any difference at all.

Bob

[manfredvijars]

"Woman without her man is nothing"
"Woman, without her man, is nothing."
"Woman; without her, man is nothing."

[Bob Pacey]

Now that Manfred I can hear loud and clear.

Bob

[Maureen K Clifford]

Good to see you Blokes getting the message and it only took 3 goes

[Zondrae]

G'day all

Well Manfred, I agree with version three. The reverse is also true.

However, when and, where to use the semi-colon is beyond my knowledge so a precise lesson it it's use would be handy and much appreciated.